Julia Peyton-Jones is a London-based curator and Senior Global Director at Thaddaeus Ropac Gallery. From 1991 to 2016, she was director of the Serpentine Galleries, which she transformed with Hans Ulrich Obrist into a global art force. Peyton-Jones also initiated the celebrated annual Serpentine Gallery Pavilion, where architects are invited to create a temporary structure who have previously never been commissioned to work in England. The renowned curator previously worked for the Arts Council England and the Hayward Gallery.
LUCIJA ŠUTEJ: How did you enter the contemporary art world and curatorial field?
JULIA PEYTON-JONES: Back then, the position was not called a curator – the term was exhibition organiser – I was curating exhibitions right from the outset, as soon as I went to art school. My first degree was in 1975 from the Byam Shaw School of Art and I always worked to earn money in tandem with my studies. These included a wide range of different jobs not connected with the art world.
In 1974, I started my art job as Head of the 20th Century Picture Department at Phillips Auctioneers in London. When I began my studies at the Royal College of Art, I stopped my work for Phillips.
LŠ: Was that your first art world job – working for the auction house Phillips?
JPJ: Yes. Of, course, Phillips Auctioneers was back then a completely different organisation – the contrast is huge, and you would not believe that it was the same institution. I was part of the Picture Department as a cataloguer, and the team was incredibly kind to me because I knew almost nothing (laugh)! My co-workers were all specialists, and together, we looked at paintings – mostly modern and contemporary art – and evaluated their worth. My role was to prepare artworks for sale and appraise their value. To say I had help from colleagues was an understatement.
LŠ: You studied Painting at the Royal College of Art between 1975 and 1978 – when did the shift from artist to curator occur?
JPJ: I went to the Royal College of Art, and afterward, I taught at Edinburgh Art College and Edinburgh University alongside my practice. The transition really occurred when I was asked to work on a Leonardo da Vinci show at the Hayward Gallery, and I thought it was impossible to do both.
LŠ: Numerous artists are also active as curators – how do you see your artistic activity influencing your curatorial practice?
JPJ: It definitely has! And also, I like speed. Referencing a recent conversation, where the argument was that speed can mean that you do not do things carefully – I do not agree with that at all! For example, the Pavilion programme at the Serpentine Galleries is a case in point. It is created in six months from inception to completion. Sometimes even less! One needs to condense what needs to be done into the shortest possible time, and as a result, it becomes very intense – which I find very exciting. But that is essentially my character!
LŠ: In 1991, you were selected as the new director of the Serpentine Galleries – and you transformed it into ‘the’ global art player. You said that you were inspired by the activity of Nicholas Serota at the Whitechapel Gallery and Charles Saatchi. Could you specify?
JPJ: Well, to paint a picture London was at that time a bit of backwater. Nick (Serota) was producing a stellar programme at the Whitechapel Gallery; his shows were resolutely international and inspiring. He showed artists’ work that, previously, we had only seen in books. Bryan Robertson, a seminal figure in the history of the Whitechapel Gallery, also influenced me. I had the pleasure of working with him at The Hayward Gallery and he was absolutely extraordinary.
Charles Saatchi was bringing vision and energy to Britain’s developing contemporary art scene. The shows staged by him often involved David Sylvester and were incredibly sophisticated. Often, the chosen artists’ work had not previously been seen in this country. You cannot imagine how thrilling it was to go to these exhibitions.
LŠ: Which institutions and curators of the time inspired you in shaping Serpentine Galleries?
JPJ: All my colleagues from home and abroad were making important contributions! Such as Elizabeth Ann Macgregor in Sydney or the late Eckhard Schneider in Bregenz. I respect them immensely. Specific institutions that were a source of inspiration were The New Museum in New York and The Mattress Factory in Philadelphia. Also, Musée d’Art Moderne de la Ville de Paris had a fantastic programme of established and emerging artists. The FIACs in France were just extraordinary for the range of their programmes and I envied the level of government support they received.
LŠ: Running a not-for-profit space comes with the challenges of finding patrons, sponsors, and it is an active role in fundraising – could you tell us more about your experience?
JPJ: I always thought that necessity is the mother of invention. The important thing for me was to do the programme that I wanted to do. I was less worried about the money, and early on, I made a decision that I preferred to fundraise rather than rely on government support. Which meant action! The benefit was meeting incredible people who have a passion for art and can afford to fund it. Creating the bridge between art and business was very important for me. Art is like breathing or sleeping – a fundamental part of life that gives inspiration and provides nurture to the soul. I want people to share this experience.
LŠ: Hans Ulrich Obrist joined the gallery in 2006 – How has your joint leadership further shaped the gallery’s mission and programme?
JPJ: Hans Ulrich Obrist joined the gallery in 2006, and in 1995, I invited him to curate the exhibition “Take Me I’m Yours” at the Serpentine. From then on, we began a still (unfinished) conversation about art and exhibition making.
When he joined in 2006, I remained the overall director of the institution. Hans Ulrich and I were co-directors of exhibitions and programmes, and he was also the director of international projects. Very lengthy titles but they were extremely accurate (laugh)!
From the start, I knew I wanted to take Serpentine Galleries to the next level. And I felt that I needed help to do this. Hans Ulrich was someone that I admired greatly. It was not a strategy I had conceived but rather a decision that evolved from our daily conversations. We talked like this for a year, and in the end, I remember thinking: “This is ridiculous! Why aren’t we working together?” There was a period of adjustment for us both and for him in terms of scale. HUO (Hans Ulrich) had joined a smaller organisation than the previous institution he worked at – Musée d’Art Moderne de la Ville de Paris.
LŠ: You initiated the annual Serpentine Pavilion, where Zaha Hadid designed the first commissioned structure. How was the idea of an active dialogue between art and architecture initiated?
JPJ: The late Princess of Wales was our Patron, and she was planning to attend the Gallery’s 30th Anniversary Gala Dinner, but sadly, she died three weeks before the event, which was cancelled.
The Serpentine Gallery’s 30th anniversary took place at a later date and celebrated the contemporary arts. Zaha (Hadid) generously designed the structure in which the Gala took place and this became the first of the Gallery’s annual architecture commissions. At the time, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, a visionary man called Chris Smith, agreed that we could keep Zaha’s Gala structure up for the summer. He knew Zaha’s work and greatly admired it. Up until that point, our landlords, the Royal Parks, were against any intervention on the Gallery’s lawn; however, (Chris) Smith’s support changed everything.
LŠ: The project turned into an annual architectural experimentation. Are architects invited, or is there an open call?
JPJ: Previously, it was by invitation, but I believe that has changed now. The concept of the Pavilion in my time was predicated on a curatorial model, so we chose the architects to design the Summer Pavilion in the same way we chose artists to have exhibitions i.e. through discussion and debate. I was always very clear that the Pavilion was an architectural commission, but there were instances when artists were involved. For example, Olafur Eliasson designed the Pavilion in collaboration with the architect Kjetil Thorsen, and for the London Olympics, artist Ai Weiwei collaborated with Herzog de Meuron. However, the examples of artists’ involvement in the project were an expectation of the rule.
I felt it was important that opportunities should be given to the architects who at the time of their invitation had not completed a building in England. The public could then have an opportunity to see the work of great architects, whose names they may know but whose work they had not yet seen.
LŠ: In 2017, you joined the commercial gallery Thaddaeus Ropac. How did you find the transition from running a non -for -profit space to leading one of the global mega players in the commercial art sector?
JPJ: Well, it’s fascinating and I am still learning. The current art world is a virtuous circle. It’s made up of artists, collectors, museums, commercial galleries, curators, writers, and the media…..and whereas when I started in the art world, all these elements were very carefully defined, but now this is no longer the case.
When I first joined Thaddaeus Ropac, I curated several shows perhaps most notably, “Artists I Steal From”, with Alvaro Barrington. It has been a very fascinating experience. At the Serpentine, I lived with art in terms of my curatorial work and at Thaddaeus Ropac, my role is enabling collectors to own works of art. There is a difference, but it’s an exciting and interesting one.
LŠ: And do you collect art?
JPJ: No, not really (laugh). I am very lucky that some artists have generously given me artwork if we have collaborated on a particularly ambitious project. I bought a number of the Serpentine prints because I wanted to support the institution. But no, I am not a collector.
LŠ: How do you see the future of art institutions, specifically museums? Do you think they are heading for a massive change in operating systems in the future?
JPJ: I think the world we live in is a very interesting one. There are many key considerations about these times about the role of museums. One is that people are “time poor”, as a general observation. And the other is the speed with which people absorb information and images- it is really at a different pace from looking at art in a museum. People look at art online and can learn a lot from doing so. I’m not against it; however, my view is that one cannot substitute seeing art in flesh.
So, the real issue for all of us, individuals, and institutions is how to stay relevant. How do museums remain relevant to the current times and how people live their lives, so they do not become marginalized without a connection to the audience? That would be a tragedy.
Funding is always an issue, but never more so than now. The United Kingdom is going through a quasi-recession, and there are indications that the economy is getting much worse before it gets better. What does that mean for a museum budget, their ability to acquire works and to do shows – all of this needs to be addressed. And my view is that necessity is the mother of invention, so yes, it is a challenging time but also a super exciting one.
